Prompt and Circumstance

[video] PROMPT 21 -
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[00:00:28] Mark Redgrave: Hello, everyone. Welcome to today's episode of Prompt and Circumstance. Just two of us on the mic today, Tom.

[00:00:35] Tom Adams: Just us, just us today. I don't, I don't know where, uh, Michael, uh, Michael Richardson went. I don't know

[00:00:40] Mark Redgrave: Yeah, I do. So I'll t- I'll fill that in a second. Listen, so today, guys, we've got me, Mark Redgrave. I'm the, um, I'm the guy trying to encourage CEOs to, uh, lean into the opportunity of AI in their business, and we've got Tom Adams on the line, um, purveyor of fine AI tools and a, an, an old all-time legend CEO whisperer.

We're gonna talk about this actually on the episode today, but, um, just the two of us. Look, um, Mike is in Panama this week, Tom, I'm pretty sure, and

[00:01:11] Tom Adams: Is he Panoff?

[00:01:13] Mark Redgrave: yeah, he's facilit- he's facilitating the Ref, um, like global forum, so, um,

[00:01:19] Tom Adams: And is that, they all wear stripes? Is that what the, that's what it's... He, he's always in this ref mode, so I just wonder if he's like, if that's a, if that's a thing. Do they all wear the uniforms or

[00:01:31] Mark Redgrave: Yeah, I don't know. I don't-- It's actually some, um, I think that's an amazing thing. He does it every year, and I'm sure he'll be, have an awesome time facilitating. I tell you that, that global leadership meeting will be good, but not as good as this podcast. So

let's just, let's just square it that way

[00:01:44] Tom Adams: No, I mean, and he's, he's missing out obviously, so

[00:01:48] Mark Redgrave: Yeah, of course. Um, Panama, maybe he'll come back, maybe he won't. I mean, it's one of those countries you just never know, so

[00:01:53] Tom Adams: No, no. And, uh, we're, we're hopeful that one of the two happens.

[00:01:59] Mark Redgrave: One of the two outcomes. Listen, Tom, what episode is this, man? Do you know?

[00:02:04] Tom Adams: Uh, I think this is '21. '21, I think. Yep.

[00:02:08] Mark Redgrave: Wow, okay. Time flies when you're having fun. So episode 21 for tho- of you, those of you who are tracking it.

[00:02:13] Tom Adams: Who are counting? My m- our mothers. My mother, I guess.

[00:02:17] Mark Redgrave: Yeah. Yeah. Mine, mine not so much, but that's another story. So look, we're gonna go, we're gonna go with a slightly different feel today, right? Because obviously, normally it's the sort of, uh, the three of us kicking around kind of stories that, that things that are in the media, things that we're thinking about.

We're-- I'm gonna, gonna take a different tact with this today 'cause, 'cause, um, as I'm assuming responsibilities for this. And what I wanna do is, is kind of, um, dig into Tom. Like, you're the guy, right, that like when we turn up each week, you're the person like who most deeply is connected to the technology that we're talking about, right?

You're the person who experiments more, creates more, just you're, you're always the one who's leading that conversation. But what I think's super interesting is, like your career is actually like deeply rooted in coaching and leadership development. And we had the great pleasure of meeting, um, in Toronto a couple of weeks ago where, you know, I was there on business and you were kind enough to drive in and, and I spent an incredible evening, loved it.

We had a great conversation. But it struck me like this is so interesting because basically we are all in around this like, okay, what does AI mean for our business? It's people-led. Leadership is such an important component of that. So what I wanna talk about just for a few minutes is like dig into like what is like your deep skills and deep experience in this space, and how that leadership and technology is combining.

Um, because it just, it just feels like a lot of people who are listening to this, this is exactly where they are, right? They are a leader trying to deal with something that's changing fast. So, I thought that would be a super cool conversation to have, if it's good with you.

[00:04:01] Tom Adams: Oh, I love that. I love it. Yeah. Let's go. Jump in. Where do you wanna

go?

[00:04:06] Mark Redgrave: well let's, start here, right? So, so talk to me, like just set the scene, right? Like, like I said, we had an awesome dinner the other night. Like, just, just talk to me about your history, what got us to here. Give us the two minutes, like how, how we landed on this spot.

[00:04:20] Tom Adams: Yeah, so Mike brought this up a couple of, a couple of sessions ago, but like my- I came out of, uh, seminary, and I started as a church minister of all things. And, weirdly, as much as I hated that, I was generation three in that, and I was the eldest son of the eldest son, and so I was kind of f- it, it was kind of a forced, reality that I was in.

Uh, and I never liked it. I, it never fit, it never felt right. And, you know, while my colleagues were reading, you know, theology books, I was reading Tom Peters. Um, uh, Pursuit of Excellence, those kind of things. And so I never quite fit. So I left that and I went into menswear of all things. And the only reason I went into menswear is 'cause I got a job, and while my grandfather on my dad's side was a minister, my grandfather on my mom's side had a menswear store.

And so I always remember that history, and I didn't go into his store,

[00:05:11] Mark Redgrave: Well-dressed ministers. Well-dressed ministers, Tom, that's what I'm hearing here

[00:05:16] Tom Adams: I know. So I went into that and blew that up. I don't know, I was 26 at the time, and, uh, my partner and I thought, "Oh, let's build a menswear store." And we, we bought a store that went out of business, and we grew it and grew it and grew it.

We had eight stores. We had this really cool thing going, and blew the whole thing up. Like, literally blew it up. And so, uh, I got my MBA on what not to do in that particular situation, and I went under the tutelage of a guy named David Moore who ran kinda like... You know the Men's Warehouse in the US?

There's one in Canada called Moore's the Suit People. And David Moore took me under his wings and he taught me how to think financially and how to think differently. Um, and then for some reason after that, I went on a 10-year speaking circuit tour, and I toured all over the world. One of the things I did in the menswear business to grow the business was I, um, went out and spoke, not about what retail was and about menswear, I spoke about what I was learning as an entrepreneur, and that seemed to get people into my store, and their- the residual effect worked really well.

But after that, I kept going. The people, people kept asking me to come and speak, and I would go out and speak and talk about the things I had learned being a manager, being a supervisor, being a leader, being a fi- you know, understanding finance, which ultimately led to owning a couple other businesses, uh, through family and different things like that.

And, 22 years ago now, I started this practice, which is my current practice, and I've been coaching for 22 years, uh, on, on an ongoing basis. And coach all kinds of different industries. I... You tend to work the large side of mid-market and, and public companies. I tend to work the small end of the middle market, so owner entrepreneurs, uh, founders, startups, um, CEOs of, of, of private companies.

I never get into the public space. So that's, that's kinda where,

[00:07:07] Mark Redgrave: So what, so, So something that really sticks out, Tom, for that, for, for that early part of your career is like, I don't see how anyone can be a coach unless you have done it, right? I meet so many people in this space

and, and, and they, their actual, like, the, the, the amount of like what I call lived experience they have, it's like, it's very theoretical, so I think that's awesome.

Like, you know, 'cause, 'cause, 'cause, so, so, um, you know, as a foundational part of, you know, giving you permission to talk to like our clients, right? It's like this is where it comes from. Like, like I, like the, the retailer part of you, like, um, is like fa- like would-- clearly formed a big part of like who you've become today.

So, so, okay, so, so now you're a co- so, so talk to me about coaching, 'cause you, when we-- you said the other night, like you have had clients for awesome lo- long time, right?

[00:08:02] Tom Adams: Yeah, no, I, I have a, you know, I have clients who have been with me over almost 20 years. I started this 23 years ago. Um, yeah, 2003 I started my, officially started my coaching practice, and I've had clients almost that long. Um, some of which many come, I, I, I would say my average stay right now is eight to 10 years with, and that's on a monthly ongoing basis.

And I think eventually it moves from being coaching to being, um, trusted advisor, trusted, um, confidant, all, all the stuff that happens in a relationship with a leader. I really believe a lot of leaders are lonely and, um, and a lot of times nobody in their world is telling them the truth. And so a lot of times they come to me and I attempt to tell them as much truth as I am able to given the context I have.

So, um, so a lot of people end up staying with me instead of me saying, you know, "Go here and win this trophy," like sort of traditional coaching. I become a trusted advisor, thinking partner, somebody who works with them through a process

[00:09:08] Mark Redgrave: Yeah, great. And before I wanna go into like, like what that looks like day to day in terms of like for le- for leaders that are listening to this, like I want them to think about how this sort of thing could help them. But before we do that, right, like you, you're like very engaged in creation around AI.

It feels like the last 18 months, like it's just, it, it's a sandpit for you that like you've waited your whole life for. So, so, so how do you balance those two things, right? Because there's an analogy here between like how you balance this and I think how leaders probably are thinking about like, "God, I've got a business to run," right?

And like, "And I need to get my arms around this technology." So just talk to me about how do you do it as a practitioner?

[00:09:49] Tom Adams: Well, I, I think the thing that I started recognizing early on is none of us have this figured out. And we've said that many times on this conversation that we keep having, which is none of us have this figured out, but my clients kept asking me, "What should I do with this?" And I went, "Well, uh, instead of making this a pressure situation, why don't I just play?"

And, and we've talked about this on the, the podcast before, is, um, so a lot of times what I have just decided to do is take the challenges that I see in my coaching environment and mirror them into playing with AI tools and go, "Well, if this is a problem, predicament, or pain that one of my clients is having, can I come at it instead of through a traditional how do we solve this through strategy, through, um, hiring somebody, through whatever those things, and is there a actual, um, AI tool that I can build, use, create an automation, a tool, an agent," any of those kind of things.

But instead of feeling pressure about it, I've never felt pressure about it, I just go build in a play structure. Like, I, I put Legos together and I go, "Well, what's the Lego block, and can I put it together?" And, and instead of feeling that obligation about creating this perfect outcome, I've spent a lot of time such that in the last, you know, in the last six to eight months I've gone, "I, I know how to do this now 'cause I played long enough."

And so it was for me not a pressure situation, it was more a play. Um, and that play allowed me to really adapt and learn stuff without feeling like I gotta f- I gotta create a ROI on this

[00:11:28] Mark Redgrave: So there's a direct analogy there in my mind, right? Between like Tom and leader, right? In terms of leader in a company, because it's like i- what you've described, Tom, is like, "Hey, I'm listening to what's coming up in my coaching, and then I'm playing to understand how I might be able to address it." If you're a leader, that's a direct analogy for me.

Like, what are you thinking doing in your day-to-day? Because that will, that will give you clear direction on maybe how you can start to think about technology helping you solve some of these problems, right? But how do you-- So, so let's, let's extend the analogy, right?

Like, how much of your... W- like what do you do each day, right?

Do you have play t- do you have like... Sounds funny. Do you have playtime and work time? Or like how do you, how do you mix... I, I actually love the idea of playtime, by the way. Like, I'm fully on board with that shit 'cause it's like we're, we all like, like creativity requires like, um, loose parameters, right? So I'm, I'm all in on that.

But talk to me about how you balance the two

[00:12:28] Tom Adams: so how, how my coaching structure works is my clients, when they're a client, get to pick spots on my calendar, right? And I open my calendar to my clients, whoever wins that slot first, but throughout the month. And so most business days I can have two to four clients per day. And so in that time I do my prep, my client work, but then in the cracks, and so I kinda use crack, crack thinking.

I go into my cracks and I go, "Based on what I just experienced in that last call, is there an opportunity to play?" Right? So it's the catalyst is the conversation, the play is do- is there something here that I can work from? Is there a tool? But I'm also reading what's happening in the world. And, you know, I follow, uh, you know, along with our conversations and our WhatsApp chats and things like that, I'm following what's happening on, on X, what's happening...

What am I seeing unfold in the world? I've got, I've got 27 AI newsletters coming at me and I'm going, "What's the thing?" I, I have subscriptions to Claude, uh, uh, Grok, um, ChatGPT, Gemini. I play with all of them as a way of going, "What's this do? And how does this one work? And what's this do over here?"

[00:13:47] Mark Redgrave: Yeah. Nice. Nice

[00:13:49] Tom Adams: it's not so much like I, I don't, I don't end up spending all my time just in chat.

Chat to me is the doorway drug, but it's not the solution. You don't solve a client problem, predicament or pain by having a chat about it. You solve it by creating a tool, a product. And, you know, two years ago I was building simple automations and now I've got full applications that are being built because I learned back then how to do these, these next steps.

[00:14:18] Mark Redgrave: not for everybody, right? So like, again, because I think that requires a degree of technical kind of commitment that... But one thing I took from what you just said, which I think is super interesting, is like the fluidity, right, of moving between, like we're discussing a real problem a person has, a real challenge, and really actively and fluidly then, like, like thinking about what are we gonna do about that?

Now, in your world, that turns up as like, "I'm gonna go play," technically. But maybe in people who are listening to this, maybe in their world it's like point number one, like don't lose those thoughts, right? Like capture those because, um, you know, this is actually like what we'd call a backlog of the stuff that's actually important to you, right, as a leader, because this is what's happening in your mind, in your business.

So I, I really like that idea of like, of how you do this is like picking, like keeping some fluidity in, um, in the way we are thinking about the problems we're discussing every day. 'Cause I, I think it's very easy for leaders to encounter these things, park them

[00:15:31] Tom Adams: Yeah, and you know, um, t- theory of constraints. I, I love theory of constraints, um, which, which is the, um, the book that was written by, uh, what was his name? Um, Eli Goldratt wrote Theory of Constraints, and the concept there is, um, the what's the biggest bottleneck in your business? And that bottleneck, if uncovered, creates more capacity and throughput.

And so a lot of times when I'm in coaching conversations, what I'm listening for is where do the bottlenecks keep showing up? what are the bottlenecks in this business? And I, I think many times the bottlenecks are personal. It's the CEO, the owner, the leader. but a lot of times the bottlenecks are a system, a process, a structure, a, a toolkit that through what the new capabilities are that we have now create a way to solve those without traditional thinking, um, which is new ways of thinking, and we've often referred to that as being agile.

But it's also a, a way of deconstructing our, our biggest obstacles and the constraints in our system, the bottlenecks, and going, "How, how can I do a workaround here with the new toolkit?"

[00:16:44] Mark Redgrave: Yeah. So I, I'm assuming, dangerous, never assume, that like coaching conversations have changed for you in the last 12, 18. Like, I assume. So, so let's t- let's talk about that for a second what themes do you see coming up in your coaching? So don't worry about AI for a second, but what AI influence themes are you seeing?

Because again, like, like these are leaders with real businesses dealing with real, like, challenges. W- what's changing?

[00:17:20] Tom Adams: Well, I, I think one, and you and I have talked about this, we've t- talked about it on the show. I think sometimes there is an internal, um, uncertainty about the capacity to ride this new wave, right? That, that's one that keeps showing up, and it's, uh, do I just exit before this, um, runs me over? Uh, that tends to be one of the newer conversations that shows up.

Um, one of the other conversations that shows up is, how do I get everybody on board with this? And that one is its own level of challenge that keeps coming up, because while a CEO leader may be digging and figuring things out, it's... There's a whole bunch of the team that is either anti, uh, doesn't really understand it.

So there's this, how do I take what I am experiencing, even in small ways, and download it down, like, like push it down the... And you, that's your superpower, which is walking into situations and getting a whole team on board for reinvention, for, new discovery, new ways of being in their, their businesses.

But that's a challenge I keep running into, is how do I do that? How do I push this down the... H- how do I push this to my people? and, and a lot of times the thing that sort of keeps coming up though, which is the old stuff, which is the presenting problem is very rarely the real problem.

Like, it's so easy to say, "They're not, they're not getting AI, they're not doing this," and a lot of times I go, "Well, have you even talked to them about it?

Have you actually had a conversation about this?" I think a lot of times they haven't. So a lot of times I see the business problems in the context of AI are often personal problems hidden in disguise, right? Which is fear of, of rocking the boat, fear of changing the system, uh, protecting turf.

All of those kind of things which are historic keep showing up. But n- the new conversations tend to be around, how do I deal with the just rapid transition of things? How do I deal with all of this stuff coming at me? That's way more in play in the last 18 months than it was in the last 20 years. Change has always been there, but it, it's just, like, amplified, and I feel people are viscerally in their, in their guts going, "Ah."

Like there's this kinda, "Ah, what do I do?"

[00:19:45] Mark Redgrave: the more it changes, the more it stays the same, right? And something that, that I, I've definitely really felt this year is that like, yes, this is, you know, the speed of this is truly, like, incredible, right? But the principles at play, exactly as you've just said, are the same, right? Like, so-- And I think this is, this should be a point of comfort for leaders, right?

It's like you do not need to be a radically different leader today than you were two years ago, yeah? Because the principles of getting your organization aligned around, like, what needs to happen, the principles about engaging, inspiring, about leading, in my mind are the same, right? Like, the, the, the game's changed a bit, but they're the same.

And, and, and I guess, like, that's to the point you just made, which is, like, often kind of the thi- that, like, what's behind the problem is not what, what people think is the problem. So, um, you know, so I think that's, uh, I think, like, I'm-- It's great to hear you say that 'cause, 'cause at a first principles level, I reckon we know how to do this, right?

[00:21:00] Tom Adams: Yes. Yes. And, and I think the, it, it's, it, it's another thing which is, um, it's very easy, uh, and I see this a lot for, uh, leaders to subconsciously defer blame to another thing, right? So it's the economy, it's this, it's that, it's, millennials. It's whatever, whatever the thing can be. And weirdly now I feel like the speed of AI and what's happening in the world is a new thing to put blame on.

Um, and I, I think we've learned over the years you c- you can't do that. Somewhere in the middle of this we've gotta go, "Hey, I, I'm going to own what the next steps are. I'm, uh, independent of what's happening out there. I choose to, uh, embrace what's happening and go with it," right? "And do something with it."

And we've-- I feel like that's what we've said since the very first episode of this show, which is, what's your job? Your job is to decide what you're gonna do and how you're gonna implement this. And I, I guess that's what I'm seeing in the conversations always, is these conversations keep unfolding that, which is are people choosing to take steps that are gonna drive them forward, or are they stuck in sort of, "Oh, this is happening to me"?

[00:22:21] Mark Redgrave: Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about like what is different, right? So, so like, uh, uh, I, I believe wholeheartedly what you've said, which is at a first principles level, it's like we-- like this is, this is just good-- great leadership is great leadership. Uh, great vision is great vision. The ability to inspire, engage, motivate is never goes away if you wanna be a great leader.

But what is different, right? 'Cause s- so 'cause s- so well let's talk about like, like let's get into some more finer detail around

that.

[00:22:55] Tom Adams: Yeah. Yeah, so I, I, I feel like what's happened, 'cause I'm, I'm playing, like I said earlier, I'm playing both sides of this fence. I'm coaching, but I'm also exploring, and I did an AI startup this year and, and the thing that I'm seeing behind that are, that are sort of underlying new bedrock principles to me, uh, what I, I almost see them as now permanent conditions, which is uncertainty is now structural.

Like, uncertainty is... Uncertainty about what's coming is no longer just a, a thing that happens, you know, once a quarter or once every half year. It's, it's every day. Like, we don't know. Frankly, we don't know what's happening. So, the thing that I think we have to get really good at because of that condition is being okay with the unknown, and I think leaders love to know.

They love to be the w- the smartest person in the room. We love to know that we know what the next step is and we've got all the details we need and, and the more I have conversation, the more I look at my own life, I go, "Uh, I don't know." We've said that many times. "Well, I don't know. Who knows what's happening tomorrow?"

and I, I just keep seeing this... It, it keeps getting stronger, is that, that you don't know what's gonna happen, 'cause tomorrow fuel prices might go down, they might go up. Um, and my clients, like the cost of diesel is a thing. Uh, in my world the cost of insurance, like insurance and, and product and all that kind of stuff just keeps being this thing that you don't know from day to day just what it's going to be like.

So, um, I think that's one of the bedrock things that I'm, I'm trying to encourage my clients around is be okay with the unknown. Be okay with the uncertainty

[00:24:40] Mark Redgrave: uh, so, so that I, I think that's really good insight because that, that dial on the graphic equalizer has smashed up to 12, right? Like the uncertainty kind of aspect to this. But what are you-- Like, what should leaders be thinking about? Like if they're, if they're a leader that needs to know and we're in an increasingly uncertain, like, environment, how do they counter that?

What should they be doing, thinking? Because it feels like a big one to me

[00:25:11] Tom Adams: Yeah, I r- I, I remember, um, years, years ago, um, a conversation a guy had with me, and hi- his point was, um, all around you, this, this thing is swirling, and can you in yourself be confident in your ability to make the right move in the moment in front of you? And to extract information, to extract, uh, you know, be an, uh, basically an information sponge, but a knowledge filter.

That ability to kind of look at the world, and instead of letting the world define it, be, be internally very confident in your ability to make moves and to learn stuff and to, to go digging where you need to go digging. And I think because everything is so unknown, something... Uh, and I've never been a surfer, but I know it's really close to where you are.

Lots of surfing happens, and when I was in San Diego, I went and watched. But there's this really interesting concept of the, the, the wave is there, and it's not uncertain, and you're riding this surfboard, but, like, weirdly, the people who are really good at surfing have this calm, non-anxious presence on the board.

I don't know what it is. Like, I'm going, "Shit, there's a huge wave coming." You're jumping on, and you're not tied to the board. You're kind of maneuvering on the board, and you're leaning back and forth. But the guys who, the people who do it really well seem to be okay in there. And, like, you get these really cool rides, and that's, that's what I keep encouraging my clients is, let's go to a place where, yeah, this is all happening.

Uncertainty is perpetual, but can you be confident in your ability to ride this wave and stay on the board and adjust to the conditions as they always, they change in the second

[00:27:04] Mark Redgrave: So le- I l- I love that analogy. Let's extend it for a second, right? So key thing about that is like you have to be confident you know how to ride a surfboard, right? Regardless of where the w- whether the wave breaks right, left, stands up, mushes out. It's like if you know you can ride, like you, you're confidently standing there, right?

The second thing is like we don't know, you know, we don't honestly know what's gonna happen until we get there. And I love the saying which goes to your previous point, which is like, "If you don't like where you are," right? "Take a step forward and look again." And, and it feels like a lot of our... You know, so when, when you're surfing, right?

Like it's, it's an a, it's a developing situation.

Yeah. Like every second it's like, "What's happening? Is it peaking?" Like where are we? We gotta make some decisions. But what you can't do is sit there, okay? Because you'll get one on the head. It's like, it's actually a great analogy. So, so, and, and I, I think like really important thing for leaders in this AI thing is like if they-- Like as long as you're confident, like, "Hey, I'm a good leader," like, "I've got great people around me.

We, we, we know what we're doing and we're ready," take a step, you know? Like move forward, make a decision, right? Like, because, you know, ideally non-fatal, like that would be great. But like just make a decision, move forward, take another look, right? And, and, and it, it feels like certainly with clients I work with, this is one way to combat that.

Like it's moving so fast, I feel like, uh, I'm in servo lock sat here

[00:28:43] Tom Adams: Right, because it, it goes back and re again states that because we can't, we can't fully manage all of the variables anymore, um, the only m- the only method that I can see, you can sit back and watch for a bit to go, "Is this the right wave to ride?" But at the same time, that wave comes and changes. It's, it's recognizing that because you can't know all the variables, waiting for all the variables to get right never works right now.

Because by the time you get it all right, you've been passed, you know, and the water's calm, and you- there's no

more riding. So part of what I think we continue to say here is make decisions, move stuff forward. That activity somehow creates an outcome. Even if it's the wrong one, at least you've learned in the process.

And I mean, I've, I've got so much experience now, not so much in the coaching, but in, you know, in the conversations of coaching, but running my own, trying to build stuff myself, and I go, my gosh, the sheer volume of mistakes. Because I just move forward with something and then, you know, you get all this technical debt and you go, "Well, I didn't really understand the database and I didn't really understand the, the stuff required."

But because uncertainty's structural, it's really important to learn how to ride that wave without a full set of knowledge behind you

[00:30:01] Mark Redgrave: And, and like I, I 100% agree and, and like a follow on from that is like, let's make small mistakes, right? So be good, be good with mistakes because they're inev- inevitable. Like ideally like, like make small mistakes and be ready to, and be ready to, to change, you know? Because this is another thing from a coaching and leadership point of view, right?

Like we-- Where it gets really hard is when we bundle up massive decisions, yeah? Because it's like you can't make them. Like I don't-- It doesn't really matter whether you've got a $1 million business or a $1 billion business, big decisions are super hard to

make. So how do we get to a point where we go on this thing, this, uh, this AI thing, here's a small thing we're gonna commit to, and you know what?

Be clear on what success looks like so you can as early as possible, yeah, kill it,

right? And it's like, because it feels like this, this helps to alleviate some of this like stress

[00:31:02] Tom Adams: Yeah, and I think related to that too, what I'm seeing and undoubtedly you see, um, is, uh, like I feel like decision cycles are compressed now much more. So traditional thinking was always yearly strategic planning and, and then quarterly stuff. And I'm going like to, to my smaller clients like, like you need to be doing, you nee- need to be updating s- these smaller, more significant strategic decisions on a monthly basis sometimes now, because the world keeps changing around you.

And so it, it's not always appropriate to leave big strategic decision-making, um, till a yearly planning session. Like it's just, it's too rapid right now

[00:31:47] Mark Redgrave: Yeah. Yeah. That, that's, that's hard though, right? Because I think a lot of organizations feel that, like, planning and all this stuff is a burden, right? A real

burden. So, so when you say, "Look, you've gotta increase your cadence of that," I think that's really challenging, actually

[00:32:04] Tom Adams: But I, but I think in there, that's when it goes back to what you said, like smaller test decisions, and I've called them skunkworks in the past. Try these little skunkwork projects. Try these little, these little things that don't change the world, but they change your view of the world because you've tested them.

And so more rapid decision-making there on these smaller decisions instead of waiting for these quarterly or yearly planning sessions. Is there ways you can do these smaller things that give you feedback, that give you, um, compression of information so that you're going, "Oh, I got that. I got that." Uh, it...

That helps us think bigger on the, the bigger decisions we have to

[00:32:45] Mark Redgrave: I agree. Bu- builds confidence, right? Builds belief. And I mean, we're back to what we talked about 20 minutes ago. It's like that's actually how you get things done, like by having confident people that believe in the direction. And, and you know, like if you're sat there listening to this and like you're staring at an AI decision that looks like 300 grand, right?

I would be asking, I would be asking somebody, "Give me a decision to make that looks like 30 grand, and let's see if that works," right? "And then we'll do another nine of them." Yeah. Like, like I, I think it's a really useful thing for people to think about because, um, those are r- those decisions are reversible, right?

And no one, you know, like it's, they're non, they're non-fatal. That's what I mean by like just j- it, it's definitely a way to unlock it. Listen, you said something, Tom, a couple of minutes ago, which I thought was like I wanna dig into. Like you said something along the lines of like systems, right? And, and, and I've heard you talk about this before, and something you've said to me before is, "Mark, like in this environment, systems are more important than effort."

You said that. Talk, t- what does that mean in the context of what we're talking about here? Again, if you're like a leader trying to understand this

[00:33:59] Tom Adams: I, I think what we're starting to see, and I, I remember back when Ryan was with us, and you and Ryan had a conversation about the fact that at, at a certain point, the head of IT now managed HR, right? And, like, um, and, and systems are not just computer systems, they're how an enterprise or an organization functions together, how all the pieces and parts work together.

And a lot of times, I, I think we believe that if I just put a lever over here, the system will change. Um, but we don't think about the system. We just think, "Oh, if, if I push the sales department faster," and in classic systems thinking we know sometimes in a reinforcing loop that might happen, but in a regulating loop it doesn't, right?

Like a, in a systems thinking, sometimes what the system does is regulates the thing that gets out of control. And so, uh, in many cases, I think systems matter more than effort because what, what companies are, are these delicately balanced systems, often, um, through the leader and, uh, the leader tries to, to influence something over here, and then something over here p- pulls the system back into, uh, stasis or into stability.

And I think misunderstanding the power of systems in this kind of environment when the world is pushing us and the external factors to our companies a lot of times are pushing us out of our comfort zone, what we don't often recognize is that the system of our businesses or the systems that we're involved in are sometimes responding, but other times they're resisting.

And there, there's this, like, whole resistance, and I feel like that's what we're hearing now politically in the world is, "Oh, fight the, fight the data centers," and, "AI is all evil." And there's a whole bunch of resistance that's showing up because structurally, as we live in this, um, it feels so out of balance, so out of control.

And, and so it's really important that I think as leaders we understand not just... Uh, we, we tend to be inside of ourselves, and we don't stand back and look and go, "If this happens, that happens. If the thing over here, uh, if I push this over here, I'm gonna get resistance over here. How's the system gonna react to what I'm doing, these experiments I'm playing in, what's happening in the greater world, what's happening in the, the social media that my staff are consuming?"

I mean, those are all part of a system that we operate in. Does, does that make sense?

[00:36:39] Mark Redgrave: Yeah, but so does every company of every size in every industry have a system?

[00:36:46] Tom Adams: Absolutely. Without question, it's, it's a, uh, I, I think it's the thing that most of us miss

[00:36:53] Mark Redgrave: So what do you-- Okay, so every company has a system. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Yeah? So how d- how do I, how do I start to understand what the system is in my company? I come-- I'm a leader, you're coaching

[00:37:12] Tom Adams: Yeah. Yeah,

[00:37:13] Mark Redgrave: Like you, you've just landed this concept of like, there are systems and if you work with them, you'll be successful.

If you work against them, you won't. What, what, how should I think about that, Tom?

[00:37:24] Tom Adams: Well, I, I think the first thing to think about is, is to recognize there is a system, and to stand back enough to, to, to try and make sense of what's there. How are all these pieces and parts working, not just at a visible level, not just how, like in a manufacturing environment, how a piece flows through a, a manufacturing process, but how do the people on that line impact how fast that goes through the system?

And h- what happens when, um, a manager walks down that line and starts reprimanding people? What's that do in the system? Like, to recognize it's not just a people thing, it's, like, you can replace a person and the system still kinda operates the same way. So I think the first one is, and I think in some ways this is easier in big systems because the structure of big companies tends to represent the system more visibly.

Whereas in small companies, smaller companies, um, parts of the system are absorbed in single people. Like, they hold lots of pieces of the system. and I think the first thing is you gotta recognize it's not just a set of people, it's a set of both visible and invisible dynamics that are causing things to work the way they are.

And I, I think given what I know about you, a lot of times that's some of the work you're doing in these larger companies to move things forward, which is, what's the underlying system that we need to move? Not just what's the logical action, right? How do we, how do we move this system forward? Does that, does that answer your question, or

[00:38:59] Mark Redgrave: But I, I, I think you're right though. It's easier in bigger companies. Like, you know, I, um, I have the, you know, the fortune of working with some really large enterprises, trying to do one at the moment where we basically have 23,000 people we need to realign. And, and like those systems are actually like, number one, there's an army of people, right, around to understand the system.

[00:39:21] Tom Adams: Yes.

[00:39:21] Mark Redgrave: there's like an army of people, right? And normally in, you know, the strategy team or the, you know, operations, or it's like there's people who know that. I think, I think it's much harder for small companies because

the reality is the system does exist, guys, whether you like to admit it or not. And so, so I think something r- really interesting for people to think about is like, is like you might be superficially looking at a process of how something gets from A to B.

But do you understand the system that sits around and behind it? I think that's a very interesting challenge, right, for, um, for, for people in, in smaller companies.

[00:40:04] Tom Adams: And what, what I find also really fascinating now is, so two words are used a lot in conversations I have, especially on the smaller side of the market, which is Claude said this, and Chat said that, and like, there's this almost personified, um, person in the name of an AI chatbot who's come into the system, right?

And now is in, is in their... In, in its own way, Claude or Chat is influencing the system, but only certain people know that that's happening, right? So a lot of times an owner is using Chat or Claude as a real tool to help them think through stuff, but the rest of the company goes, "What's changing with like, he or she never said that before.

They never produced memos like that." And all of a sudden there's memos coming out that are perfectly designed and up-- and people in the system, right, the system is going, "Wait a second, something doesn't feel aligned here." Because that's not being disclosed, it's just back in the background.

And to me, it's a really fascinating, uh, understanding of what's happening in the world now with leaders, which is A, there's a system.

B, anytime I add or subtract from that system or put something into it, it changes what happens in the system. And now what's, what we're looking for is what's the feedback? What's the reaction? Is there a self-reinforcing loop that's taking place here, or is there a resistance to bring it back to where it was, bring it back to where it was.

We don't wanna get out of control here.

[00:41:42] Mark Redgrave: How many times have we seen it, right, this year when we're working with clients and they go and like someone has a great idea and like your memo example, right? It's like suddenly this thing shows up, yeah? Like into the system, right? That no one has ever seen before, like no one, and, and, and it's like, and people are really surprised that like there's organ rejection from like the system because people go, "What is this?"

Like, um, like suddenly like there's a requirement for me to do this thing with this thing. I've-- We've never talked about it. I've never seen it before. So it's like, I guess some guidance to people listening and watching this is like, guys, just think about this, right? And, and the, and, and the best antidote is to actually like think about the systems.

Because if you start there, you start to understand that like, okay, things I'm about to do even... And by the way, I think you'd agree, Tom, they're always well-intentioned, right?

[00:42:45] Tom Adams: Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's never the issue.

[00:42:48] Mark Redgrave: never the issue, but it's like, just because if once if you start to think at a systems level, you start to better understand the impact of some of these moves.

And we spend our life encouraging people to move, right? So it's complicated. I mean, it's like not lost on me

[00:43:03] Tom Adams: and, and what's, what's I find really kind of interesting too is, um, is when you're not aware of the system, then what generally transpires is you're, you're just going around hitting things or pushing things or, uh, like, like you're... I, I heard from somebody at the local chamber of commerce meeting I should do this, or at a conference.

And so you bring back that thing and you implement it. But if you don't understand the system part of it, let, let alone with AI and what's happening, what, what you don't recognize is you may never change it 'cause the system is too solidified against this shift. Like, it just, it just... Or, or it'll puke it out in about 24 hours.

And you'll go, "Ugh, uh, I... They're... My team suck. My team just will not comply."

[00:43:55] Mark Redgrave: So, and I think like just to land, l- like to land this part of the conversation in a positive place, it's like we know conclusively, and it's not-- You don't need a PhD in psychology for

this stuff, right? Like just think, think in systems and then like if you do that, what you can do is you can find that like if you play that like, like, like with, uh, visibly and intelligently, right?

You can get the outcome you want. So the thing, the very thing we're describing, which is the, the negative impact of this stuff, you can outplay that. You've just gotta think that way, right? Like ignoring it is going to punch you in the face 100, 100%.

[00:44:34] Tom Adams: Right.

Right. And, and it, it's, it's not changing. That's, that's I think the, that, that's the piece that, um, is easy to forget. It, it's very easy to go back in sort of very ego-driven approach to this instead of recognizing there's this big system at play all the time, and it's outside of me, it's inside of me, it's part, I'm a part of it, and I'm also intersecting with it.

And a- as leaders, I think it's just really important, like, to at least have a perspective every so often that looks at that

[00:45:05] Mark Redgrave: Yeah. Look, we're gonna need to bring this into land, like, um, 'cause time flies when you're having fun. On-- Like, when it comes to sort of to- like tools, right? Like we, we get naturally like kid in a candy store fixated on tools. Yeah, everyone does. And if you think about the, the, the like the riches we have around us for like pennies on the dollar, it's actually, it's pretty amazing, right?

Like I, I,

kind of, I kind of, kind of can't get over it. But, but like, like it's not about tools, right? Like, like it c- it can't be just about... And you've, you've said on a previous podcast like, "Guys, if you're, if you're th- if like tools is where you stop, like you're kind of missing the point." Just e-explain that because again, in terms of the way you're coaching leaders, how do you talk about that with the people you're helping?

[00:45:58] Tom Adams: the way I've been able to frame it that seems to resonate, which is AI is a permanent condition of your role as a leader now. Like, a- and so AI is not about a tool. It's not about ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini or the new Grok bot or whatever we're playing with at any given time. It's now a permanent condition of being a leader, which is the world is constantly in motion, which we already talked about.

Um, you don't implement and move on, you live in it. You live, you live the reality of being in AI, right? So it's like you live the reality of having a competitor all day long. You don't spend every day thinking about your competitor, but you spend a lot of time recognizing that you always live with a competitor.

And I, and I feel like on the same, in the same token, tools is not what really needs to be the fundamental focus. It's that transformation really comes from recognizing that this is a permanent condition of the world we now live in. And for the foreseeable future, I don't see that changing. So, um, so as, as much as I've said build-- I build tools to solve, help solve problems, predicament or pain that I keep seeing with people, um, I n- I don't use it as a tool to solve the problem.

I, I use it as a way to think about how do we keep evolving in the world we're in, um, and how do I keep showing up in a way that this allows new possibilities, new opportunities, new ways of being

[00:47:37] Mark Redgrave: Yeah. So there's a direct connection there, right? Like tool, tools are a way to like, to, um, address opportunities. For opportunities to create value, they're in a system. Don't ignore the system,

right? Like, and I, and I think that's why like... But it's, it's such an interesting perspective you have because of your, you know, the, the 25, 30 years of like, of like leadership development as your background, and then with this highly technical kind of, uh, thing that's emerged in the last couple of years.

It just feels like you're sat, you're watching this like front row seat thing. It's like, it's pretty fun though, right? Like it's a... And, and I think we're both getting like a lot of enjoyment from like helping, uh, leaders, founders, CEOs like, like pace through this because as, as you just said, like it ain't changing.

Like that, that's one thing. I- there's a lot of uncertainty. This isn't one of them.

[00:48:34] Tom Adams: Yeah. Right

[00:48:35] Mark Redgrave: like the certainty is this isn't going away. Like

[00:48:39] Tom Adams: it's, yeah, it's profound. I, I think it's a profound moment, and we've been through changes before, but I think this one has an additional layer of profoundness to the shift that's happening.

[00:48:50] Mark Redgrave: Yeah.

Good. Uh, awesome conversation. Let's finish on something lighthearted. What have you seen this week that you thought was cool, fun, interesting? Uh, what, like, what, what stuck out this week?

[00:49:03] Tom Adams: Uh, well, uh, it's been interesting to watch and I, I think it was just sort of on the scene the last time we talked, but, um, it's been interesting to watch how Facebook h- or Meta has hit with Muse, which is their little agent tool. Um, and sort of in response to Grok Bot, and the two of those are now, uh, they're, they're now kind of competing and, uh, and then I think what people start realizing is, "Oh, these are really cool tools.

Uh, what am I gonna do with it?" And, um, I can, I can talk to Muse for 10 minutes and it can find a flight for me, and then tell me what I could have found on Google in three minutes. Um, and so we're still in this, this interesting phase. I think Muse is really cool. I'm using Muse right now, f- uh, Meta's Muse, uh, to be my m- my Facebook Marketplace tool.

And I h- I, I like kinda interesting old watches and, uh, and I've just told Muse, "Just keep an eye on within 100 miles what kinda interesting watches show up, and tell me what you think about them." And, and I go, "Well, that's kinda cool. That's kind of a cool little, little extra." But, um, I don't know, 'cause I've been playing with the agentic stuff for long enough that those aren't blowing my mind up, but there's, they're really...

What I'm seeing is this move, especially when Facebook gets into it or Meta gets into it, the, the world is being taught how to use agents

[00:50:26] Mark Redgrave: Yeah. And like, so my thing this week was the same, right? Like, I looked at the ChatGPT Dots release, and I loved it because it's not a bot, a Grok. Uh, like it's, it's like it's a super friendly agentic front end, right? And, and I thought like from a branding, and I mean, I'm a marketing guy, from a branding and kind of positioning point of view, I thought this stood out for me.

So I'm like, and, and I'm seeing some fantastic ads on TV showing like the utility of agents. And some of them, some of the ads are brilliant, right? You

go, "Wow, can it, can it really do that?" And you go, "It can do that." So I actually think we're, we're, we're about to hit, like we said, we said six months ago, didn't we?

May- maybe more like, like, uh, Claude is going to go enterprise, right? ChatGPT is gonna go consumer. Like obviously Facebook and, and Meta are in consumer. But it's like, but it's like this, I think the consumer side of agentic is about to explode, and I think it's awesome actually. I think it's super

fun

[00:51:28] Tom Adams: yeah. Yeah, No, it's been really interesting to watch. Um, and, uh, I, I think that's the fun thing, watching people get it and they go, "Oh, oh, that's cool." Right? When we've been playing in it, and I would say we're in the, uh, uh, not, uh, from a pride position, but just frankly, we've been pushing the envelope a lot.

You know, we're, we're in the top 5% 'cause we actually pay for Claude. Um, but I think as you see people, 'cause th- at this point, Facebook isn't charging for Muse, and so people are playing with it, and I think that's always the thing that gets people involved is they play. And, you know, to me on the other side it's like how many fricking agents are gonna be calling me now?

[00:52:10] Mark Redgrave: Yeah, yeah, yeah. How many... Like Gemini's impressed me this week, right? And I, I on- only because like I, I actually have to do a really complicated flight, right? 'Cause I, I have to get from of all places like Bali to London, like in a couple of weeks time. And, um, I was like, and, and I started my search in Google and I just let Gemini run with it, and it totally sorted me out.

Like my choice of airlines based on my airline, ba- based on my Oneworld alliance, the flight time I should take off based on my jet lag kind of arrival position, yeah. What I should do like before and getting on the plane, when I should sleep and avoid food, when... And it just spat it out and I went, "This is actually super useful."

You know, and, and it's like, so even Gemini went, wow, good job guys. Like

[00:52:59] Tom Adams: I know Gemini, Gemini showed up this last week. I, uh, one of, one of my tools is a conversational AI agent that has multi agents in it, and this week, 'cause Gemini came out with it independent of the chat, um, their, um, fully functional conversational platform is smoking hot. Like, it's so good. You just talk to it and it talks back.

But I'm putting four of those people on a screen right now, which is sensational. So

[00:53:28] Mark Redgrave: So look, it's, uh, yeah, it's good. It's good. All right, good, good

lighthearted way to leave it. Appreciate the, um, getting into this though, Tom. Thank you for, uh, for sharing that with us.

[00:53:36] Tom Adams: And,

thank you for, uh, for digging it out of me.

[00:53:39] Mark Redgrave: Well, yeah. have a great day everybody who's listening, watching, and we'll see you next time

[00:53:43] Tom Adams: Cheers. Bye-bye